Shining Tea Room

I Think Masculinity Might Be Entirely Unnatural

This topic contains 17 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Madeira Darling Madeira Darling 6 months ago.

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  • #1275432
    Profile photo of Madeira Darling
    Madeira Darling
    Participant

    Even in Telluria. I’ve been doing a bit of mythological research and it seems to me that originally in Telluria there was no masculinity, only what we would call femininity, and only later did it happen that in some societies did “masculinity” begin to separate itself.

    Masculinity (as we term it) is composed of domination and absence of the feminine, and is an artificial “cutting off” of certain things from the wholeness of being. I argue for that by pointing out how easily “masculine” things are absorbed into femininity, put a pink bow on anything and it becomes girly, put spikes on girly things and they remain girly. Boy’s names become girl’s ones constantly and hardly ever the reverse. Men are constantly afraid of the taint of the feminine. And then I argue that the primordial “mother goddess” myth is connected to the “primordial chaos” myth and that these myths are the founding myth of hierarchical patriarchal society with masculinity tearing itself out of the primordial chaos, and thus positing femininity and egalitarianism as inherently chaotic, and saying “all order is our order”

    When in fact their order is no order at all, it is inherently discordant and aggressive.

    I believe we have to work very hard to make “masculine” people masculine, we started by making men masculine and now we’re trying to make everybody masculine when if fact we shouldn’t be forcing this monstrosity onto anyone at all and should be discouraging it if such a vile thing were to crop up naturally (though I personally do not believe it is a natural occurrence in human nature, it is sometimes a situational response, but it does NOT occur spontaneously).

    I think Aristasia is a land where such a thing was less likely to occur by chance, and so avoided the horror of such a situation occurring.

  • #1275825
    Profile photo of Sushuri
    Sushuri
    Moderator

    Welcome to the Forums, Miss Darling.

    Some people think that humans were originally intemorphic though that is only a conjecture.

    If I understand correctly you are standing the “femininity is an artificial social construct” theory on its head and suggesting it is in fact masculinity that is the social construct while femininity is natural. Would that describe your position correctly?

    I would certainly have to say that if one of the two is really a social construct it makes a lot more sense that it would be masculinity!

    I hope you have a happy time here.

    Please give me your loving indulgence.

    • #1276052
      Profile photo of Madeira Darling
      Madeira Darling
      Participant

      Yes, I believe masculinity is a social construct separating itself artificially from femininity which is the natural innate state of all things.

  • #1275827
    Profile photo of Mei
    Mei
    Participant

    Rayati, honored ones!
    Welcome, Miss Darling! I must say, I would love to discuss Tellurian mythology with you at some point in time on the forums; you seem very well read!

    Please give me your loving indulgence, and I beg pardon should I step out of line in my application of Tellurian science. I must confess that I find it altogether quite fascinating.

    I quite avidly study Tellurian science, and I have found through my studies hat, even in the womb, female beings develop by default. It is only through the introduction of male hormones that a male should begin to form. In addition, the male Y chromosome is actually believed to be a mutated form of the X chromosome, and cannot stand alone; it requires one X chromosome to even function.

    Now, having put aside the more materialistic view, I also believe that nature bears witness to how natural femininity is.

    While masculine features are harsh, and are emulated by industrial buildings and other such man-made structures, feminine features are soft, flowing, in harmony with everything around them. Looking at the most visible (and stunning!) flora and fauna of the world, that same harmony is always present. The same may be said of any natural phenomenon.

    I hope you enjoy your time here, Miss Darling!

    In Amity,
    Mei

    • #1276119
      Profile photo of Madeira Darling
      Madeira Darling
      Participant

      Mei, exactly! Also it is natural for all sentient things to appreciate beauty, to love sweets and cute things, but people are forced to abandoned these things in order to be “masculine” and Tellurian mascules are especially punished for it, and told they’re unnatural, and weak and wicked if they don’t abandon them, the only outlet they’re allowed for the love of beauty is the desire to possess it in others, which makes them into possessive, greedy creatures, because the only beauty they’re allowed is that of women.

      • #1276187
        Profile photo of Mei
        Mei
        Participant

        Rayati Miss Darling; you have stated it quite perfectly!
        In Amity,
        Mei

  • #1275910
    Profile photo of Yuriko Rill
    Yuriko Rill
    Participant

    Rayati and welcome, Honored Miss Darling.

    Please give me your loving indulgence.

    Yes, it is interesting, Tellurian mythology does seem to have several references to a time when there was no division between the masculine and the feminine, including the second of the two Creation Myths in the Judeo-Christian Written Tradition. While patriarchal scholarship tends to see these myths referring to all masculine or androgynous humans, it is far more likely that they were referring to all feminine humans.

    I seem to have waftings of a time when Telluria was an intemorphic world, and the apparent presence of melini and chelani among Tellurians in femini bodies seems to suggest that this might be the case.

    Of course this is speculation, but it is interesting speculation.

    Lately, I have been doing a lot of thought on the subject, and to me it seems like masculinity developed as a form of aggressive, hyper-Vikhelic gender…perhaps as a response to the growing harshness of physicality through the unfolding of the Ages, as Maids began to feel that they needed more protection from demons and the Dark. While in the Motherland, melini are bigger and stronger than masculi on Telluria, it seems that masculi are far, far more aggressive.

    The Motherland also faced danger as the Iron Age progressed and received Divine Intervention in the form of the coming of Sai Rayanna.

    It is good to have you here.

    In Amity,
    Yuriko Rill
    .

    • #1276541
      Profile photo of Madeira Darling
      Madeira Darling
      Participant

      I think perhaps originally there were predecessors to masculi who were not masculine creatures. Although they are in some ways very bongo, I think Storm Constantine in the Wraeththu books contain some possible seeds of truth about Tellurian pre-masculi although they are set in the future, the creatures they described are beautiful, slim and straight up and down but not as Tellurian masculi are, slim hipped and flat chested but otherwise feminine in form, and in carriage and manner, graceful and by nature generally nurturing although some of them are capable of being quite cruel. I will attempt to tell what I think the truth from the books is without bringing in objectionable elements. In the books the authoress says they are capable of reproducing with one another, having but one sex, and I think that may have been possible, though I believe there were also at least femeni though I think it more likely that there were melani and chelani, as well as these proto-masculi. In any case in the books there are very peaceful, very spiritual groups of them (the proto-masculi, in the books they’re called wraeththu, I think to underline their spiritual nature) and in these groups, all members of the group are at least as feminine as melani and many more and they generally wear their hair in feminine manners and dress prettily, and they do not divide themselves. But there are also groups where they divide themselves into those who are “masculine” and those who are feminine and the “masculine” ones attempt to eliminate every trace of their natural femininity, all beauty, all compassion, they want to rule with an iron fist and they make the feminine ones do all the childbearing, even though they’re just as capable of doing it themselves, and rearing and treat them as property and are generally horrid to them and are warlike and terrible.

      In any case I think the truth might be that humanity consisted of these proto-masculi who I think might have been in their original form vikhelic-sushuric beings (which explains their ability to reproduce with members of their own sex) and either melani and chelani or a thamic-sushuric gender (like the Kamagrian in the books a bit perhaps) and I think that the unbalanced vikhelic (no thame in their nature to counter the disorder) went rather out of control when put under pressure at some point and the vikhelic got more and more dominant until they lost the ability to reproduce with one another and became the creatures we know today. They grew to despise the sushuric and everything they associate with it and squashed it as far as possible in their own natures and in the nature of the thamic-sushuric beings. I think that perhaps they thought their disorder came from the sushuric rather than the vikhelic in their natures (as they’re always accusing femini of causing disorder, for example blaming poor Helen for that nasty war, and they calling drab but orderly things “masculine”. I think perhaps the corrupt cult Sai Rhavë in post eclipse Tellura is mascules trying to bring order to their chaos, but associating Sai Thame with Sai Sushuri, who they believe to be chaotic, they don’t trust her, so they try Rhavicness and it just makes them worse)

      I think you can actually still see a lot of sushuri in Tellurian mascules, when they’re not doing everything they can to suppress it, it would also explain certain tendencies in their interests but I have known several Tellurian masculi where I could see the natural vikhelic-sushuric dual nature that they’ve suppressed and honestly, they’re a bit wild but they’re bright and colorful and very sweet if not always responsible.

  • #1277068
    Profile photo of Miss Betty Grace
    Miss Betty Grace
    Participant

    What frightfully interesting observations you offer, Miss Darling. In reviewing the Chapel’s article on Hestia (http://www.mother-god.com/hestia-the-greek-goddess.html) for yesterday’s observances, I was struck by its teaching on the social construction of the agora, which does, of course, rather make sense when one is led to think of it (like Columbus’ famous egg). That would seem to support the idea that masculinity was likewise constructed in response to the emergence of the agora. It may be an indication of the hestia’s original ubiquity that mascûls retain vestigial signs of their once having been able to fulfill the hestian function of feeding children.

    One is also reminded of Julius Evola’s effort to argue that the foundational unit of society is not the family, but the Männerbund—the band of young warrior mascûls who coöperate to secure one another’s interests against hostile forces. This argument might be a reflex of the same impulse that originally led mascûls to think that the thamic and sushuric principles had to be rejected in order to govern this new, agoric sphere. On the other hand, this thinking seems likelier to arise among mascûls already threatened by the violence and discord brought by masculinity. It all does get rather chicken and egg, doesn’t it?

    • #1277462
      Profile photo of Madeira Darling
      Madeira Darling
      Participant

      Indeed! In fact it’s been shown that many mascules can fulfill such a function and do in some cultures fulfill such a role (The Aka tribe in Africa for one) Which again suggests to me an underlying susheric quality. If I may speak of my Tellurian family, my father is very much a blond, dreamy and caring and profoundly kind, and my mother profoundly brunette in nature (thamic to a profound extent) so that may influence my views a bit. I suspect as my mother is Thamic but almost entirely non-sushuric that she wouldn’t have been able to produce children with a typically vikhelic mascule. It is also interesting to note that my mother spent many years in Japan (she was an exchange student and then an Asian studies major and worked at a charity that served Japanese immigrants for many years)

  • #1277858

    I think you can actually still see a lot of sushuri in Tellurian mascules, when they’re not doing everything they can to suppress it, it would also explain certain tendencies in their interests but I have known several Tellurian masculi where I could see the natural vikhelic-sushuric dual nature that they’ve suppressed and honestly, they’re a bit wild but they’re bright and colorful and very sweet if not always responsible.

    Do you know, Miss Darling, that is almost precisely what I was thinking as well? Here are my few and scattered thoughts on the matter.

    First, it is possibly not necessary that the beings we now know as masculi would have to have been physically different at all to be very very different from the masculi we know under patriarchy. And we must remember that it isn’t just patriarchy, but the nastiest, hardest, most crushing late Kali Yuga form of patriarchy that weighs on every single Tellurian any of us have ever met in this lifetime! It would be very tricky for us at this vantage point to pick out what exactly masculinity even is, absent the presence of patriarchy.

    Second, I think to the way archaeological remains are sexed, by bone structure, and how unreliable that method is. There are now living Tellurian femini who have a bone structure that would be identified by an archaeologist as masculine, even if that’s the only masculine thing about them. It is entirely possible that masculi could vanish completely from the archaeological record, going far enough back, and nobody would realize it because of the assumptions archaeologists make.

    A tangential but interesting topic for another time would be the ridiculous assumptions Tellurians apply when drawing dinosaurs and how that would look applied to creatures we can see now.

    • #1278120
      Profile photo of Madeira Darling
      Madeira Darling
      Participant

      Indeed, Miss Rosamunda! I also agree very much about the dinosaurs (my brunette is especially fond of dinosaurs and has a delightful little book called “All Yesterdays” on exactly that subject). Also Tellurian mascules spend a VERY great deal of time, it seems to me, trying to avoid looking similar to femini. They wear boxy things, and seem to intentionally hide their shapes and do unspeakable things to their hair, and ignore the natural human drive to adorn themselves all in order to be sure they don’t look like femini. If you look at certain healthy tribal peoples, you see masculi and femini looking nearly indistinguishable and in Japan especially there are quite a number of mascules who appear much more similar to how a mascule might in a healthy age, many of their mascule pop musicians especially appear very pretty and to have embraced rather than rejected the sushuric part of their nature. It also seems to me that in less deracinated cultures (Japan, certain cultures within Africa, certain indigenous cultures of the Americas) the mascules do not appear as… hairy and clunky and squared off as do the majority of mascules in more deracinated cultures.

      It is hard to find very racinated images of this, but I did dig up one I thought suitable to illustrate
      A rather pretty imagining of a proto-mascule by an Easterenne Tellurian artist: Proto-mascule

      There are some others that remind me a bit of Arkadian art, but I wasn’t sure if they were appropriate to the forum so I suppose I’ll put them in as links

      A drawing of a proto mascule resembling Theda Bara

      A Japanese pop musician mascule in pre-Eclipse style dress

      OH! Oh! And most interestingly, there is the Indian deity Ardhanarishvara who is a deity who is supposed to be a deity composed of Shiva and Parvati combined into one entity. Shiva being the destroyer/chaos deity and Parvati being the goddess of love, I think that might be a very good indicator of the original nature of mascules, in that Shiva represents the Vikhelic principal and Parvati the Sushuric, and then they’ve sort of tried to separate themselves out). There’s also Dionysus, who the Greeks were always suspicious of because they saw him as “effeminate” (and he is feminine, and depicted as such in The Bacchae), he’s Vikhelic in that he is very much a chaos deity, but also he is a fertility deity and thus necessarily susheric and he was a patron and protector of the femini who worshipped him, which I think shows some of what you get in a balanced vikhelic-sushuric nature. There is also Ishtar who was the goddess of love and interestingly war and a very interesting story about Asushunamir an androgynous being who rescues her from the underworld and who is cursed for it, but she protects them.

      Oh! Oh! And I just realized why masculi might have such fear of the sushuric in their nature! Fire and WATER! (I’m sorry I’m writing this as I think, blonde that I am, and I get excited). I think they’re worried that half of their dual nature will get “put out”, not of course seeing that they’re lost without the moderating sushuric influence.

      I also theorize they might have come to be as a force to re-balance things after a period of excessive Rhavic influence (a mixture of wild and generative, able to protect the love principle, destructo-creative)

      This is slightly off topic, but re: the Kali-yuga, if I recall correctly in previous ages people were supposed to have been taller and longer lived and gotten shorter and lived shorter lives as time went on, and I wonder if increasing Tellurian life expectancies and heights mean anything.

  • #1278392
    Profile photo of Madeira Darling
    Madeira Darling
    Participant

    Another interesting point is that we have records of Masculi bemoaning the extinction of “real men” since the beginning of recorded history and it occurred to me as I was getting ready for bed, that perhaps their complaint is oddly valid, because the last real mascules were not masculine creatures. They believe they’ve lost some essential part of themselves and have been complaining and worrying about it since they became mascules, not realizing, of course, that what they lost is their femininity.

    Also I think it likely that they are not simply Vikhelic, a purely Vikehelic being wouldn’t be so prone to authoritarianism as they are, they have a dark “order” to them, all that bureaucracy, all that system intended to make sure the havenots are have nevers… a chaos principal wouldn’t in my mind be able to administer an empire, I think there must be something demonic in there.

  • #1279047
    Profile photo of Sushuri
    Sushuri
    Moderator

    Honored Miss Darling – I too have noticed the “prettiness” of many Japanese masculi popular musicians, and it certainly seems refreshing. Link (the hero of The Legend of Zelda) is also often depicted in ways that seem distinctly “feminine”.

    On the other hand, Japanese masculi (like masculi in most places) have a tendency to use “rougher” language than femini. This is a rather fascinating phenomenon because while the patriarchal mythos presumably sees men as the creators and “owners” of culture and language (I do not actually believe that Language is a human creation at all, though humans adapt it into “languages” but that is another question) – masculi often as a mark of masculinity tend to use language less correctly and accurately than femini. Why should less-correct language sound “masculine”? I am not sure but it seems to be the perception across many cultures.

    However, returning to Japan, I wonder what you might think of Ryuucheru (clip below). He is very popular in Japan these days and is far from the only young mascul “tarento” (celebrity) who adopts a decidedly “feminine” style.

    I confess I do not imbibe West Telluri media at all, so I can’t be sure, but I have a feeling Ryuucheru would be completely misunderstood, and very likely not accepted at all, in West Telluria.

    (My apologies for the poor sound on the clip below)

    • #1279391
      Profile photo of Madeira Darling
      Madeira Darling
      Participant

      Indeed! Mascules seem to have a hatred of language, which seems to particularly express itself in certain of the worst and most masculine Tellurian political tendencies. There are of course Westerenne Tellurian mascules who are somewhat similar (very pretty creatures) but they’re treated quite viciously by society and have nowhere near the cultural centrality of the Easterenne ones.

      Here is another very かわいい and feminine mascule from Japan:
      Bou from Antic Cafe

      Ryouhei:

      I also think the fact that there are quite a number of mascules who seem to enjoy wearing feminine clothing in private, where as very few if any femini seem to enjoy doing the reverse suggests to me a very deep desire to return to an authentic feminine nature. Of course they tend to think of it in the crude carnal way mascules have, but I even have a theory on that (I’ve written a sort of essay but it’s a bit long, so I’ll put a link to it: Why Mascules Are So Obsessed With Carnal Love in summary they couldn’t fully deny love, but are deeply afraid of being drowned in the vastness of complete divine love, especially given their sushuric nature so they chose the most physical and thus easy to keep under control expression of love and chose to fixate on that)

      It also seems to me that this perhaps explains why the difference in physical strength between the Tellurian sexes is slighter than between the Motherland sexes (Mascules are half Sushuric at heart and so are “softer” and more “unworldly” than a Melani, or perhaps they were once stronger and denying the Sushuric part of their nature has made them weaker than they might have been because their suppressing parts of themselves).

      An ancient statue of Dionysus, depicted as beardless and very pretty
      Dionysus

      Also Dionysus is rather a pet subject of mine, and I think it’s extraordinarily interesting that he was in some mystery cults considered an aspect of Demeter (Mother of Persephone) and in some mystery cults considered an aspect of Hades (Consort of Persephone) so even if he has no direct connection in myth to Persephone there’s something worth noting there.

      I think if one simply imagines masculine deities in approximations of their original feminine forms one can see some very potentially interesting things, for example Hades is obviously a Rhavic figure and was probably originally a goddess of the “crone” archetype. So mother and dark mother both have embodiments in Dionysus and Persephone, the preserver passes from Demeter to Hades…

      Perhaps part of what has happened is Tellurian mascules have passed from a state of being Vikhelic-Sushuric (Wildly productive and spiritual) to Vikhelic-Rhavic (Wildly destructive as we are after all in the Kali-Yuga). It is also interesting that parallels have been made between Shiva and Dionysus (both have femininity and were “liberator deities”… I think perhaps Rhave may have two aspects within herself, the aspect of stillness, completeness, and finality at the end and the aspect that returns her to the state of light mother… or something along those lines as wild dancing Shiva and Dionysus seem rather unRhavic in her limiting, static aspect, Hades however, if one considers him in a more authentic feminine form, is orderly and quite Rhavic, and so Dionysus (who is of course quite feminine to start with) could sort of represent the period of Sai Rhavë becoming Sai Raya, as the daughter is sort of the period of Sai Raya becoming Sai Rhavë? Does that make sense?

      The cycle of the universe goes Mother, daughter, crone, and the other side of the cycle is sort of aged Phoenix, burning Phoenix, new Phoenix. Also it is worth noting that Dionysus is a god who dies and is reborn… so that makes Dionysus as “burning Phoenix”

      Also both Shiva and Dionysus makes me think of them as a sort of sensible aspect for them as what takes place when Sai Rhavë becomes Sai Raya. Sai Rhavë is authoritarian, strict and so on, when things end they get “too restrictive” and so the liberator aspect of battle/change/chaos must come in so that rebirth can occur.

  • #1279050

    How かわいい! I think certainly he would be misunderstood utterly – in West Telluria femininity in masculi is considered a transgression, and certainly a mascul such as this would not be considered sincere, much less おとなしい, which is a concept they do not understand at all. I, however, adore him.

  • #1336946
    Profile photo of Miss Lavandula
    Lavandula
    Participant

    Rayati Miss Darling,

    Please give me your loving indulgence.

    This topic has given me much to ponder upon, as I make my way through understanding many changes I have experienced these past few months.

    I wish to express how exciting this is! I love these ideas, thoughts, these wonderful viewpoints. They make perfect sense to me. I have struggled to understand so much about gender in Telluria… this helps greatly.

    In Amity,
    Lavandula.

    • #1337609
      Profile photo of Madeira Darling
      Madeira Darling
      Participant

      Rayati Miss Lavandula! ^_^

      I grant you my loving indulgence and hope you will grant me yours in return.

      I’m terribly glad that you’ve found my silly waftings useful. I have read all of the books now and although, as I said some of their content is quite objectionable, they seem to contain more than a small amount of truth (far more than I have found in nearly any post-Eclipse West Tellurian media). They are based heavily upon alchemical principals and the authoress seems to be a very clever and shockingly devout femini (given her West Tellurian origins). In my study of various Tellurian societies I also discovered something most interesting, there are many societies that make room for “throwbacks” or proto-masculi born in modern Telluria, for example, Muxe in Oaxaca (Southern Mexico) wear feminine clothing and do work like sewing, jewelry-making, and embroidery but are considered neither femini nor masculi, and are permitted to and frequently do marry femini, similarly the Polynesian fa’afafine are similar. It’s quite interesting because fa’afaine seem to be really very sushuric in nature, as illustrated by this quote from the wikipedia article:
      “Being a fa’afafine is said to be thoroughly enjoyable by this group. Many would state that they “loved” engaging in feminine activities as children, such as playing with female peers, playing female characters during role play, dressing up in female clothes, and playing with female gender-typical toys. This is in contrast to women who stated that they merely “liked” engaging in those activities as children. Some fa’afafine recall believing they were girls in childhood, but knew better as adults. In Samoa, there is very seldom ridicule or displeasure towards a biologically male child who states that they are a girl. For instance, one study showed only a minority of parents (20 percent) tried to stop their fa’afafine children from engaging in feminine behavior. Being pushed into the male gender role is upsetting to many fa’afafine. A significant number stated that they “hated” masculine play, such as rough games and sports, even more than females did as children”

      So I would argue that the mere emergence of mascules was a sign that something had gone quite wrong.

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