Shining Tea Room

The Good Things That Came From the ’60s?

This topic contains 8 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Shiratori Shiratori 3 years, 7 months ago.

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  • #732
    Profile photo of Rose
    Rose
    Participant

    In the past, some fellow Filianists and myself have discussed the nature of Filianism and it’s Traditionalist context. While some agree with retaining the Traditionalist outlook, others argue that Guenonian ideas serve us no purpose in theology.

    One of the points that comes up is the idea to not completely discredit the 1960’s, as during this decade good things were achieved as well. The Civil Rights movement, gay rights, women’s liberation from economic dependence on men are all commonly cited.

    Now, perhaps the method by which these movements achieved their results was problematic, but most people would not argue that they led to a more just society. I am also aware, as we discussed before, that there are elements of both good and bad in every age.

    Could it be argued that, while there were a few good things that came from the 60’s, the ultimate cultural collapse far outweighed the good? As a Traditionalist, this is my notion.

     

     

  • #734
    Profile photo of Lady Aquila
    Lady Aquila
    Participant

    That the shift from a rajasic to a tamasic culture was also accompanied by the alleviation of some of the worst features of the rajasic culture is certainly true. Whether the former happened as a result of the latter is less certain. In the instances you cite, for example, women’s property and other rights had been in process for years, women were voting (some of the biggest changes came in the 19th century), the army had been desegregated. That any of the changes you mentioned would not have happened if the culture had not collapsed seems less than likely since they were already on track. They may have happened a little more quickly owing to the sudden breakdown of constraint. They also may not – it isn’t possible to tell. If they did, it was a pretty high price to pay for a speed-up of a few years.

    We would say that Tellurian patriarchy has never been a terribly nice system, even when it was healthy. It isn’t even certain that a healthy patriarchy is better for us, as exiles, than an unhealthy one. It could well the that a sick tiger is better than a healthy one from our point of view. People have tended to take our analysis of Telluria as  saying “Telluria should do this, or that”, but that isn’t our position. Our position can better be explained by the tiger analogy.

    Suppose there we are in a wild place and there is a tiger, and the tiger is threatening, but clearly very sick. If I say – “that water the tiger just drank is poison”, the implication is:

    “Let’s not drink that water”,

    It is not:

    “I wish that tiger were healthier”.

     

  • #735

    Oh, I really love the tiger and the poisoned water analogy, Honored Lady Aquila.  How very true!

    The 60’s were an interesting time in Telluria, though, and, I think, can be instructive in understanding the true Vikhail.    Most of West Telluria has forgotten that Dark and Light are Forces in and of themselves, and so think that the battle is between maidenly factions.  In the U.S., the lines are drawn between the Conservative faction and the Liberal/Progressive faction.  The truth of the matter is that the Light can work through any maid that is turned to the Light, and the Dark can use any maid that is not firmly rooted in the Light.  In a democracy, the factions are really groups of maids.  Even the factions that claim to be spiritually based are still organized at the maidenly level.  While West Tellurians are cynical and wary with respect to each other, they are unbelievably ignorant about the workings of the True Enemy, the Dark.

    Was there a movement towards Light in the early 60’s?  Yes, I believe so.  Were there brave warriors for the Light then?  Yes, of course.  Telluria is a Shadowed World, I believe, although I think it is getting closer and closer to being in danger of being a Dark World.  There are still those who are fighting for the Light, and there have been throughout its history.  The thing that one must understand though, is that ANY movement towards Light will be accompanied by a counter-attack by the Dark.

    I have thought long and hard about this after coming here, as in my former days, before I knew who I was, I was on the front lines for the “side” I believed was for the Light in Telluria.  I have dear friends who were part of the very movements in the 60’s that you refer to, Honored Miss Carmilla.  In listening to their stories, I have learned that the degradation of society and cynicism were not originally a part of these movements, but happened after the Dark counter-attacked in a way that the U.S., and perhaps West Telluria in general, lost any innocence it still retained.  The activities of the Dark were broadly televised, which spread them to the Image Sphere of an entire nation, and likely much further.  The Dark won the battle I think, and has used its victory to make people believe that the move towards greater kindness and the degradation of society are inevitably intertwined.  The Dark has created a false dichotomy, which is that one must choose between a kind society and a traditional, ordered society.  Both “sides” now believe this, I think, and thus both “sides” are working for the Dark, while believing they are working for the Light.  It is quite a tangled snare, really.

    The trouble with the brave Warriors of Light in West Telluria, is that while there are many who are well-intentioned, they have no understanding of the true nature of the Vikhail, so they become quite vulnerable to the wiles of the Dark, and they can be unwittingly used by the Dark.  It is only by knowing and understanding the Light that one can really see the Dark.

    Of course, as Honored Lady Aquila said, it is not our role to tell Telluria what it should do.  To be honest, I think we can say that we don’t really know.  One of the funny things about the West Telluri democratic model is that everyone thinks it is her duty to fight every battle, which is a bad model for a squadron.  It seems better to do one’s own duty, do it well, to stay loyal to the Light, and not be distracted into leaving one’s assigned post to fight battles that one has not been assigned to.  At least it seems that way to me.

  • #736
    Profile photo of Charis
    Charis
    Participant

    I think any return to any semblance of health or order in West Telluria would/will be very harsh and repressive (as “legitimate” patriarchy so often was). We are very likely better off with the sick tiger. Of course Telluria can’t go on with complete cultural decay forever – it will have to remedy itself or fall apart. Currently falling apart is looking more likely, it seems.

    I am so glad it isn’t our affair! Truthfully the sick tiger isn’t much of a problem if one keeps out of its way and above all doesn’t drink its water. A healthy tiger could be a much nastier proposition for daughters of the Motherland.

     

  • #737
    Profile photo of Petite Sorcière
    Petite Sorcière
    Participant

    It is a real mess isn’t it? I am so glad it isn’t our mess!

    I am not sure what the position of Tellurians ought to be, though one is very wary of “traditionalists” who, start watering down tradition. People, for example, who propose not to believe in the decline of the ages because it might discourage people from working for betterment or something of that order.

    This is rather like saying “we won’t believe in the law of gravity so people won’t get hurt falling from high places”. What it really shows is a contempt for metaphysics. Nobody decides to believe or disbelieve a scientific theory on the basis of whether it fits their ideology.

    Hee! Who am I kidding? Of course they do, but they at least pretend to believe it for reasons of evidence in order to maintain the alleged “objectivity of science”.

    In metaphysics no such respect is shown even by semi-Traditionalists. They treat metaphysical truth as a matter of “personal opinion”, like Tellurian politics, football teams, bubble-gum wrappers and things of that order.

    As Miss Geneviève Falconer famously said of modern Telluria “Everyone has a right to her opinion, because everyone’s opinion is as worthless as everyone else’s.”

  • #738
    Profile photo of Myriam Hildotter
    Myriam Hildotter
    Participant

    Yes! Yes!  I am glad that it is not our mess, and you are likely right about the sick tiger, Miss Charis.

    Aside from watering down tradition, the argument that a belief in the decline of the ages would discourage people from working for betterment is a rather silly one, and a misunderstanding of both the doctrine and the nature of Free Will.  No matter how “high” or “low” one is in manifestation, she has the same choice towards Light and Dark within her material circumstances.  Indeed, in many ways it is an easier path towards Light now, because less is expected of us in these Later Times.

    As to the doctrine, what it is referring to is increased consolidation into matter and decline in our mental and spiritual capacities.  In fact, recognizing this is the only thing that makes “betterment” possible really.  We do need technology and more assistance in our physical existence now.  That is just want it is.  One can see the degradation in living generations.  For example, I need a calculator to do math that my grandparents could do in their head.  There is no shame to that.

    The choice of society toward Dark and Tamas is a completely different matter, I think.

  • #742
    Profile photo of Sushuri
    Sushuri
    Moderator

    That is so right, Miss Hildotter. The decline of intelligence and spirituality is inevitable, but the turning toward the darkness cannot be as maid has the power of choice, both as an individual and as a social entity. We know in any case from the Motherland that it is possible to have a rajasic society that does not turn tamasic.

    An interesting thought here is that while the West Tellurian rajasic era began at the time of the Renaissance, its “modernist” – in the sense of revolutionary and aberrant rationalism – period did not begin until the mid-17th century. It seems that there was a period when West Tellluria could have gone into its rajasic phase on a different and traditionally legitimate track (this article is helpful here).

    This may seem a long way from the 1960s, but the point is that the die was cast at the time of the Rationalist Revolution. It was this that sent West Telluria on a path of aberrant rajasic modernism, rather than something more akin (though still of course patriarchal) to the rajasic period in the Motherland. This form of aberrant rationalism contains in it the seeds of post-modern tamasic culture, and makes an Eclipse almost inevitable (that is, inevitable unless free will is used to reverse the error).

    The last watershed after that was the re-engineering of West Tellurian consciousness by the pseudomythos. After that the Eclipse was really just the playing out of a hand that was already dealt. Of course very few things are unmixed – the very rupture of the fabric of patriarchal society may have eased the path to some alleviations of patriarchal problems.

    As honored Lady Aquila says, these could and probably would have happened without the Eclipse, but at the same time the Eclipse was all but inevitable without redressing the missteps that led up to it, and for that West Telluria seems to have neither the knowledge nor the will.

  • #743
    Profile photo of Myriam Hildotter
    Myriam Hildotter
    Participant

    The ironic thing is that it seems like the deepest basis for rationalism, which is the Aristotelian departure from Tradition over 2,000 years ago, may have been based in a denial of practical implications of the doctrine of the decline of the Ages.

    In my research of Classical Astrology, which included study of the history of medicine, it seems that people noticed that the former methods of healing people did not “work”.  Instead of realizing that the decline of the Ages might mean that things that “worked” in the past may no longer work, it looks like they thought that the Tradition itself was faulty.  My understanding of the deviation from Tradition was a doctrine that if what was observed with the senses did not match the Traditional understanding of the Archetype, then the Traditional understanding must be wrong.  Yet, I think one would expect that through the decline of the Ages, matter would deviate more and more from Perfect Form or from the Divine Archetypes.  Yes, practical application of Traditional principles will need to adjust to the declining Age, but that does not mean that the Tradition is wrong.  Indeed, I think, that the need to adjust on a practical level is accounted for in the pure forms of Tradition in the doctrine of the decline of the Ages.

     

  • #772
    Profile photo of Shiratori
    Shiratori
    Participant

    I hope that this is not too silly to share, but the Honored Vika’s talk about the media’s role in the decline in the 1960’s reminded me of something I saw on Fresh Precure a few days ago.

    In this series, the goal of the side of Evil is to fill the Misery Gauge to revive the Evil ruler.  One of the Evil minions got a plan to fill the Misery Gauge a LOT by turning a TV broadcasting receptor into a Nakewameeke (the monsters of this series, the name meaning “Cry and Shout”) to defeat the Precure and to broadcast that defeat all over the town, creating misery and demoralization everywhere!

    Anyways, that seemed a lot like what the Vika described…but…in the Precure episode, the Precure defeated the Nakewameeke, and that ended up being broadcast…so the plan backfired!

    I like that story better!

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